Yes, and ad hominim attacks are very strong support of your position.

My understanding is the major problem with LED bulbs is that they are forced to be bulbs in the first place.

Common light sockets are just about the WORST way to use LED lighting one could think of. LEDs like low voltage DC, but sockets provide high voltage AC. LEDs provide directional light and need to be mounted accordingly, but sockets are designed and mounted for light bulbs that shine in all directions.

Adapting LEDs to be like the incandescent light bulbs people are used to adds a ton to the price. Properly designed purpose built fixtures for LED lights might result in less then half the current cost per light.

Of course, we'd have to spend the money to replace all our fixtures (recessed and strip lighting instead of sockets that hang from and stick out of walls), and few people will want to do that unless they are going to replace them anyway for another reason.

Ironically, I suspect the transition will probably be so slow in that area, that LED bulbs for traditional style sockets will become affordable enough for it to not really matter anymore before even a small percentage of sockets in homes get replaced. Hell, we don't even HAVE a new standard fixture for LED lighting yet as far as I know.

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

You people crack me up!

Adoption of LEDs is roughly proportional to energy savings IMO. I can go out and get a CFL bulb for ~$.25-$1, and it'll save ~75W compared to a 100W incandescent. Paying $5 for an LED bulb would cost ~$4+ more for a savings of ~12W more.

OK...it's already February 2010...where the heck can i find one of these bulbs?

Everlasting light:

http://www.regione.vda.it/energia/notiz ... o11ita.pdf

Sep 6th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Researchers have developed an environmentally friendly light bulb that uses very little energy and should never need changing...whereas traditional light bulbs emit just 5% of their energy as light, and fluorescent tubes about 15%, the Ceravision lamp has an efficiency greater than 50%...it is expected to last longer than the devices into which it is inserted...another environmental advantage of the new design is that it does not need mercury

A little googling found the following article, apparently they just finished a lawsuit over patent infringement.

LINK

From the article linked above:

You are merely projecting your own personal attitudes/ speculating as to others' motives...you don't really know any of us...you don't know what we do in our everyday lives. Entitlement??? what a joke.

If you really understood how ruthless a lot of these big corporations (Walmart being a good example) are when it comes to maximizing their wealth/power, you might get a little better insight into the possibility of suppression of technologies that could radically shift the balance of power between the people and their corporate overlords. It is as simple as that.

So far I feel that LED's are a good investment. CFL, on the other hand, are a complete waste of resources and money. I've never had a single CFL bulb burn for more than 10 hours (not a typo) - seriously! I've tried at least 4 different 'brands' of CFL's and not one of them was worth a fart in a blizzard. The LED's I have seem to last and last with zero 'waste' heat generation and more than adequate luminosity. I've only had my LED's for about 3 years so far, but not a single one of them has ceased to function yet.

Wolf, I've had at least one CFL which lasted 11 YEARS. No kidding - it was in a bathroom light fixture used daily (maybe on 1-2 hours a day sometimes more) I believe it was a phillips. Most of the ones I have get decent life and last 3-4 years with moderate use. I have recently been switching to LED and have some that only lasted a month (cheap Chinese tracer wiring on the mounts I believe - the individual led's still light) - that ticked me off. I look forward to switching to some of the warm white LED's as they become more reasonable.

-G

Maybe we can trade... I've had CFL's burn for hundreds of hours... I can't even remember when one has burned out recently.

On the other hand I think I have just one of 6 LED's still functioning 16 months after purchase.

I've read the constant hype surrounding CFL's and contrast this with my direct experience. There is zero correlation. I have considered the possibility that my being off-grid may be partially responsible for the extremely short duration longevity I've experienced with CFL's. However, according to all I've read, my off-grid AC is far more stable (both voltage and frequency) than ANY grid-source. NO other load (equipment) has ANY problem with true-sine inverter outputs - NONE. Only the CFL's. I gave all the CFL's I once had away and deliberately stockpiled a 'life time' supply of incandescent bulbs for the few locations where I felt LED's would not be effective (sufficient lumens) - yet. Also, where possible, I use 12 VDC bulbs - automotive type - since it is far more efficient to use DC (from wind and PV) than converting battery storage to AC. Could my negative view on CFL's be power supply related? Sure. But I rather effing doubt it. OTOH, I have 17 LED bulbs (not including in flashlights) for about 3 years and not one of them has failed - yet. Most of these have been used for from 3 to 6 hours per day (seasonal correlation) - every day. No problem.

edit to add, I bought these LED's from Hong Kong off of E-Bay. And they were the cheapest ones I could find. Have no 'name' branding and I do not recall the vendor.

OTOH, the experience you report with such terrible results with CFL's is SO far off the profile of everyone I have ever discussed them with, that it makes me suspect there must be SOME unusual variable in your situation.

Have you tried more than one brand of CFL bulb? One room? One socket, etc?

My girlfriend got pissed when a relatively expensive (8 or 10 bucks) 150 or 200 (I forget which) CFL replacement bulb for her kitchen failed in about a year. It hung upside down, and was physically a big sucker which was different than all such bulbs I'd used.

I suggested we try again, and if it failed quickly again then we avoid them for THAT application. As it worked out, the replacement was fine, so it must have been one bad bulb. Thinking about it, I can't recall replacing another bulb of that type, and I've been converting to them for me, friends, and family for what seems like a decade or so.

When you consider the energy problems we have and how much electricity we could save the planet if everyone used efficient lighting WHERE APPLICABLE, it's just staggering the difference it can make, so I hate to just see people discard a whole technology or tell friends it sucks because of a personal experience.

Wolf, it does sound like something unusual might be happening. I run a whole house inverter (Trace/Xantrex 4024) which is I believe a "modified sine wave" - not true sine but microstepped and is quite good - I do get some buzzing with inductive motors like ceiling fans but I have never had a problem with CFL's.

-G

in reply to CFL queries
- multiple brands, multiple fixture types, multiple inverters (AC sources)
- most attempted uses was in gooseneck or articulated-arm mounted fixtures
- CFL's wouldn't work at all in specific fixtures ('makes no sense')
- In all others, they would last from minutes to hours (of usage)
- I've tried at least 2 dozen bulbs in maybe 8 fixtures and never got one to last more than a few brief uses.
- The WalMart CFL's were worst of all. With those, I spent more time changing bulbs (excluding 'recycling') than they operated.


Modified-sine inverters are highly problematic for many application types and especially so with audio-video (and medical) equipment.
Modern true-sine inverters are more expensive to purchase (2-4x per W) but in my experience these last much longer and are generally more efficient as well as equipment friendly. I can recommend the Trace/Xantrex line of "ProSine" inverters as being very stable and reliable (and pricey).

Modified sine wave inverters (xantrex and outback) are very nearly as good as "true sine" inverters and are the most common - mine is a 4024SW. Can't say I'd see a reason to go with the very expensive true sine type. Cheap inverters are typically square wave or clunky stepped modified sine (you ought to see em on a oscilloscope!) and I would imagine could cause problems. Trace DR series were an example of the low end stepped wave. I have never had problems with high end modified wave inverters (such as the xantrex SW series) other than a minor hum from the ceiling fans. I have had no problems with home appliances and none whatsoever with home electronics as most of them use a switched power supply or wall wart and are running DC internally anyways. What medical equipment have you had problems with?

Your experience with CFL's sounds really abnormal. I have several friends who are off grid and none have had issues with their CFL's either so I wouldn't think it had anything to do with the inverter - one of my friends even uses a Trace DR as his primary. Perhaps you have an unusual electrical problem? Ground fault loops or other odd situation? Maybe a problem with the fixture?

While I do see variance in the lifespan of various CFL's mostly due to quality control I imagine, I have never seen any go out that quickly.

-G

LEDS are not particularly power efficient compared to other light sources per lux. They can have a very very long lifespan and are fantastic in situations where its inconvenient for a light source to be a consumable item .
However they don't like excessive current so to make them last it's best to drive them with slightly less than their rated current, this can have a dramatic impact on longevity. Over driving leds increases their brightness at the expense of lifespan. a small increase in current shortens lifespan considerably, as does heat so make sure to use an adequate heat sink for those big Cree types.

CFL's like a nice clean power supply and don't like being switched on and off a lot, a bit like regular tubes this stresses them a bit. its best to leave them on for long periods as they are quite efficient anyway.

That's not true at all. As I posted above, the reason many LED *bulbs* are less efficient then they could be, is that LEDs are unlike all other common light sources in that they produce directional light only, but bulbs have to be designed to shine in all directions to work properly in current fixtures made with incandescents and florescents in mind.

When you use LEDs properly as directional lighting, they are the top of the heap in efficiency.

If I was to build a new house, I would plan for LED lighting throughout (probably 12 v at that and off-grid).

As I have an old house the cost of rewiring is too great (as LED lights should be used in different ways to CFL lights). Now most rooms have a mixture...a CFL in the main socket for general lighting and LED lights for reading lamps/bedside lights etc. The exception is we have a couple of unheated sets of stairs for which I have bought expensive LED general lights as CFL lights take for ever to give out light in a cold environment.

To give you another data point, I got a bunch of 40-watt, 60-watt and 75-watt incandescent bulbs that have been replaced with CFLs rated for 60-watt, 75-watt and 100-watts equivalent of lumens, respectively. Those 100-watt CFLs are incredibly luminous for the 23-watts that they use.

I've also replaced a bunch of older CFLs with new CFLs because the newer bulbs give off a whiter light. I actually prefer them to incandescent now except for the incandescent flood lights that I have -- guess I should look for CFLs for this, but finding flood CFLs that are dimmable as well, I just haven't seen any in the stores.

There is no excuse not to change over given that the energy companies often subsidize the CFL prices so you get each bulb for about $1. The only drawback has been the slow startup time, but this has improved markedly as well and in many applications it is no longer a problem.

The CFLs that I've had have lasted most of the time that I've used them, 4-6 years, except for a few. Dimmable CFLs are great but hard to find; I haven't tried mail order yet.

Overall, maybe I save enough electricity to make up for all the energy consumed running the computer so often

in some areas of northern italy you can see led lightings on the roads. they're ok, tay're not weak, their light is very very white. and i think they use very little electricity.so just wait a couple of years and you'll be able to find led bulbs in supermarkets.