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The Chinese economics of renewable energy supply

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Graeme
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 15:02:00 • Reply
The Chinese economics of renewable energy supply

Quote:
Prices of solar energy and wind turbines are dropping world wide. This article in the New York Times highlights the role of China in this market. The bottom line is as follows: China by now is the world leading manufacturer of solar panels and wind turbines. By this is achieves economics of scale and can offer products at a relatively low world market price.

There are two immediate consequences:

1.Installation of renewable energies becomes cheaper world wide
2.Manufacturing competitors in other countries have a tough stand competing against Chinese manufacturers

Why could China get into this position in first place? The NYT article delivers the following explanation:

“China’s biggest advantage may be its domestic demand for electricity, rising 15 percent a year […] In the United States, power companies frequently face a choice between buying renewable energy equipment or continuing to operate fossil-fuel-fired power plants that have already been built and paid for. In China, power companies have to buy lots of new equipment anyway, and alternative energy, particularly wind and nuclear, is increasingly priced competitively.”

The debate pro/con nuclear power from the climate perspective is still open. The Chinese evidence of the economies of scale, however, provides some quantitative indication in favor of phasing out conventional plans rapidly.


environmentalresearchweb


timmac
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 15:12:00 • Reply
Yep and Michigan is spending thousands if not millions into advertisement to swing renewable energy companies to open up plants in there state, I figured China's cheap labor force would be another nail in the coffin for American made solar and wind turbine companies and such.

Really folks, how long do you think we will last with no more production in the western worlds, China's 0.50 cent a hour workers are hard to beat and there quality will get better with time..

Graeme
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 18:22:00 • Reply
Innovate


timmac
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 20:16:00 • Reply
Graeme wrote:
Innovate



Could you please explain how to innovate with wages so low that it won't feed your or my family let alone house payment, car payment, meds, leisure, etc, etc.

I know we westerners can just lower our wages to say a dollar an hour and set the medium home price at $15,000.. :shock:

SeaGypsy
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 21:05:00 • Reply
That might be where then Amero comes in. Revaluing everything in the USA might not be such a bad idea!

Tyler_JC
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 21:12:00 • Reply
Quote:
Could you please explain how to innovate with wages so low that it won't feed your or my family let alone house payment, car payment, meds, leisure, etc, etc.


Americans have to figure out a way to be worth their wages.

Meet King Joe

Yes, the video is corny. Yes, the video is moderately racist. Yes, the video is naive about globalization.

But the basic explanation of Capitalism and the source of America's high wages is 100% accurate.

Lousy trade policy, excessive regulations, and the unwillingness to invest in productivity improvements has made Americans less able to compete with countries like China in the production of many goods.

Image

GM could only afford to pay high wages when its workers had a comparative advantage in the production of automobiles.

GM didn't innovate, it lost its competitive advantage, and its workers lost their wages.


Tyler_JC
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 21:22:00 • Reply
Would you rather have a thousand wind turbines and import them from China or would you rather have 500 wind turbines and produce them in the United States (each at a total cost of a billion dollars)?

That's the real question.

We can choose to protect our renewable energy industry but the cost will be to all consumers in the form of higher electricity bills.

Or we can allow the free market to produce renewable energy at the cheapest possible prices, reducing the total cost of energy for society.


timmac
1 week ago • Sunday 2010-01-31 22:10:00 • Reply
That Meet King Joe vid is so true at whats happening today, one part showed that if a company could not offer a product faster and cheaper it would go bankrupt, sort of how its happening today but with American the company going broke and China the other company offering the product faster and cheaper..

Tanada
1 week ago • Monday 2010-02-01 04:25:00 • Reply
Tyler_JC wrote:
Would you rather have a thousand wind turbines and import them from China or would you rather have 500 wind turbines and produce them in the United States (each at a total cost of a billion dollars)?

That's the real question.

We can choose to protect our renewable energy industry but the cost will be to all consumers in the form of higher electricity bills.

Or we can allow the free market to produce renewable energy at the cheapest possible prices, reducing the total cost of energy for society.


First off it doesn't cost a billion dollars a turbine for USA power from wind, if it did they would never have gotten started let alone keep being built at the current rate.

Secondly, what good will be done by building twice as many turbines if nobody has a job and can afford to buy the electricity they produce? It is the same argument that caused the Japanese to build auto manufacturing plants inside the USA. If they dominate the market with imported good's then they create an unemployed country that can not afford to buy their imports. People can prattle on all day about free trade and globalization, but the reality is things on this planet will only be equal if we settle into two classes. The super wealthy making up 1% and the heartrendingly poor making up 99%.

I prefer a society with upward mobility and multiple income levels, thank you very much.


ian807
1 week ago • Monday 2010-02-01 12:33:00 • Reply
Graeme wrote:
Innovate

Haven't worked in the tech industry have you. Here's how it works.

1) Invent a cool new technology.

2) Start company to sell new technology.

3) Find out that you can't afford American wages for tech support, tech writing and ongoing maintenance.

4) Outsource everything you can.

5) Sell to another larger company that will outsource everything it can.

Since everyone's outsourcing, their prices reflect this and you can't afford not to do the same. Thus we all race to the bottom.

SeaGypsy
1 week ago • Monday 2010-02-01 12:59:00 • Reply
Spot on Ian.
Or: righteously endeavour to keep your innovation and it's development at home, only to find that it has been taken to bits and put back together in a country which doesn't give a hoot about your intellectual property. Walk into Walmart and find your innovation retailing for less than your raw materials costs, with some minor aesthetic adjustments, claiming to be original. Talk to a patent lawyer who tells you to get ready to spend millions over years in court to maybe force product retraction. Hence the writing is on the wall and outsourcing from the onset is the only rational way to go. Sad but true.

Ludi
1 week ago • Monday 2010-02-01 14:46:00 • Reply
Hey, yeah, let's compete with China's lack of "excessive regulation"! The free market:

Image

Image


Bas
1 week ago • Monday 2010-02-01 17:49:00 • Reply
like in japan and south korea before it, there will come a point where chinese wages will go up and they will start to pay more attention to the quality of their society (like cleaning up their environmental act) and there are already signs that this will happen. I heard today that China is planning massive investment in it's rural poor areas that have been left behind so far. On the other hand, when wages in China go up, the most labor intensive industries with least added value (like clothing) will move to other countries like India and nothing much will change for the West, except that we have gained a huge market for innovative and high value added products in China.


Outcast_Searcher
1 week ago • Monday 2010-02-01 18:21:00 • Reply
ian807 wrote:
Graeme wrote:
Innovate

Haven't worked in the tech industry have you. Here's how it works.

1) Invent a cool new technology.

2) Start company to sell new technology.

3) Find out that you can't afford American wages for tech support, tech writing and ongoing maintenance.

4) Outsource everything you can.

5) Sell to another larger company that will outsource everything it can.

Since everyone's outsourcing, their prices reflect this and you can't afford not to do the same. Thus we all race to the bottom.

+1 Ian. And now with this administration, you have the government doing everything it can to discourage anyone innovative enough to succeed IN SPITE of the mess you outline.

Don't worry though, when their stupidity fails, they'll just blame "the rich", raise taxes even more, regulate even more, and then wonder why their plan fails.

This is NOT the "change" I voted for!

Ludi
1 week ago • Tuesday 2010-02-02 15:02:00 • Reply
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
they'll just blame "the rich", raise taxes even more!



I keep wondering when this administration will tax the rich more! Seems like they just want to keep giving more money to the rich!


eastbay
6 days ago • Tuesday 2010-02-02 15:52:00 • Reply
Ludi wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
they'll just blame "the rich", raise taxes even more!



I keep wondering when this administration will tax the rich more! Seems like they just want to keep giving more money to the rich!


+1 Why some feel otherwise is beyond me. What he does is exactly 180 degrees from what he says.


Ludi
6 days ago • Tuesday 2010-02-02 17:00:00 • Reply
eastbay wrote:
+1 Why some feel otherwise is beyond me.



They still think he is "Left." He was never "Left." This country is so far right almost anyone left of Reagan looks like a screaming lefty. Obama is about as left as Nixon.

:|


yesplease
6 days ago • Tuesday 2010-02-02 17:41:00 • Reply
He's letting the Bush tax cuts for people making $250k+ per year expire. Besides, I don't think he could get something through congress to get rid of the Bush tax cuts ahead of their expiration.


eastbay
6 days ago • Tuesday 2010-02-02 21:22:00 • Reply
Ludi wrote:
eastbay wrote:
+1 Why some feel otherwise is beyond me.



They still think he is "Left." He was never "Left." This country is so far right almost anyone left of Reagan looks like a screaming lefty. Obama is about as left as Nixon.

:|


Ludi, I'm glad you pointed this out. I've thought about this too on occasion and kept quiet because I thought I was alone. And I hate being in the minority opinion on a Great Issue.

Obama also reminds me in many ways of Nixon. Both won big. Both inherited a few pointless illegal wars and while pledging to end them instead fed the killing with a drive any psychopathic madman would envy. Big business loved both. Both clumsy dorks. Both out of touch with Common People. Both this, that, and the other.

The big difference is that in January '69 we changed the anti-war chants to reflect the new war maniac. The peace movement was unified in this. The wars immediately became Nixon's wars. Not this time. Nope. The peace movement has vanished, but not mysteriously! Obama gets a full 'pass.' Why? Because he's part Negro. And that's flat out crazy.


yesplease
6 days ago • Tuesday 2010-02-02 22:12:00 • Reply
Ending combat operations by 09/10 and a withdrawal by 2011 is feeding the Iraq war? How do you figure that eb?


Graeme
1 day ago • Monday 2010-02-08 12:30:00 • Reply
Who Will Win The Race For Jobs In Renewable Energy?

Quote:
When it comes to renewable energy innovation and equipment manufacturing, China is challenging the West, and the outcome will decide where millions of jobs go in the future.

As The New York Times reported recently, "China vaulted past competitors in Denmark, Germany, Spain, and the United States last year to become the world's largest maker of wind turbines, and is poised to expand even further this year. China has also leapfrogged the West in the last two years to emerge as the world's largest manufacturer of solar panels. ... These efforts to dominate renewable energy technologies raise the prospect that the West may someday trade its dependence on oil from the Mideast for a reliance on solar panels, wind turbines, and other gear manufactured in China."


huffingtonpost



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