If you're a woman, and someone's trying to rape you, the best deterrent is a .45 pressed to the side of the head.

Wrong thread for this type of comment.

But it's absolutely true, and should be reinforced. Threadbear said the best deterrent. A .45 slug in the brain > pretend throw up. Simple equation. It speaks to the poor strategy of depending on non-firearm weapons. There's no good reason not to get a firearm for self-defense. If someone is anti-gun for political reasons, I'm not going to shed a tear if they suffer for their stupid mistake.

That said, as I'm sure has been stated before, a layered defense is best:
--Avoidance is #1
--Empty hand skills are #2 (including striking and grappling)
--Hand-held-weapons are #3 (Filipino martial arts excel at stick and blade training)
--Firearms are #4 (handguns will be sufficient for the vast majority of self-defense encounters)

I studied martial arts for 10+ years, primarily karate/kickboxing and arnis, with a bit of judo and other stuff thrown in. I realized that placing your well-being on hand-to-hand skills is VERY poor strategy. There will ALWAYS be someone bigger, meaner, and with more friends than you. There's a reason they called the .45 Colt the equalizer.

If the guy is already grappling, then the easiest thing a woman can do is pretend to succumb for a split second then give a good kneeing to the groin or jab a finger through the eye. Both are non-lethal but 100% effective.

Non-resistance is the most powerful form of "resistance".

There are a number of excellent JuJitsu (and other related styles) moves that can control, take down, and/or incapacitate a person. Judo is related, though a bit to refined and "nice". There will be times and situations where someone cannot carry a firearm and they need other measures to prevent harm from an attack.

I realize others have a different opinion in states where carry is allowed, and diversity of opinion is fine here. However, this is not the firearms thread, it is a discussion of non-lethal measures; firearms discussion is OT here.

For a non martial arts trained individual a tonfa (side handled baton) is relatively easy to learn to use and very effective.

It can however be fairly easy to deliver a lethal blow.

To start I have to say I am a gun advocate but sticking to on topic here.

The best thing in my opinion (with or without a firearm) is...

AVOIDANCE. You know the old saying.. It is better to talk your way out of a fight that get into one. I would say if you can relate to the person persuade them that you are in the same boat then most likely they will move on. I.E. We have very little food here or we were cleaned out by the last people that came here... etc.. It may or may not work but the very last thing you want to do is come running out with a shotgun scaring everyone. The only thing you have done there is marked yourself.

1. You are armed.
2. You have something worth defending. More than likely you have food since you still have not sold your gun to get some.
3. You have the capability to shoot food. Thus you may have a deer hanging in the barn.
4. They can come back with numbers to make your shotgun ineffective.

I guess the point is to use as much verbal, land layout, lights, dogs, bushes, and any other nonlethal defense as you can BUT if all that does not work you still need lethal force. And that should be the last resort and IT SHOULD BE LETHAL. Scaring or wounding someone will probably bring a whole lot more of them. Humans are very smart and adaptive animals. You are defending so they almost always have the element of surprise. Just be smart and keep your cool and more than likely you will not have to use that lethal force.

Just my 2 cents.

I too have studied Aikido, and am very fond of it but I started having Health issues with the training. The tumbling makes me too dizzy to keep my balance and the arm twisting (when I'm Uke) is much more painful than it used to be, due to my arthritis (i'm closing on 50). I would ask if you Sensei Turtle have actually used Aikido to resolve a conflict or defend against attack. Aikido has given me the gift of calmness in the face of agression, as you suggest you yourself have learned.
I have not had to use my Aikido yet, although I had the opportunity to study Hap Ki Do in the ROK when I was in the Air Force, I did use that a couple times to excellent effect, I "myokemi" rolled down a flight of stairs once, taking an assailant who had a handfull of my long hair down with me (but backwards, that look of sudden terror in his eyes was worth a lot).
These days I have backed away from Aikido, because It just hurts to much to train realistically. My Dojo started offering Iaido and I find it much better suited to my physical abilities. I realize Iaido is anything but "nonlethal". The art if actually practiced in a combat situation can really only result in bodies on the deck and blood on the walls. Zombie Apocalypse however, I am ready for!
Self defence is not really a reason for my continued training in the Budo, I find on reflection that if I have a disciplined bone in my body it is to the credit of my years on the mat in the Dojo.
If it really comes to TSHTF, Armed thugs, marauders or the like I have a 1911 .45, a couple of 12 gauge shotguns and a home made catapault (the latter likely not so helpful). My dog died, I need another but I am still in mourning.

I believe the best nonlethal defense is capacity building, working with your community to have fruit trees and berry bushes everywhere. Then people can just eat for free. I lived in the Phillippines back in 85-87 and I believe that we are headed for that deep of poverty here too and yet people there were so much happier in my opinion than people here and they had nothing materially, that is what I saw. I have put blueberry bushes and rasberry and strawberry in my yard and right now I am okay with people eating them if they are hungry. It else helps others think about what time it is, they need to start doing the same thing. I learned in the police academy years ago that burglars fear dogs more than guns, so I do have a big dog, a chow I found walking around at my daughters daycare. She was hungry and now she is fat and happy. She could be scary. I do have 2 guns and pepper spray as well and I would only resort to that if waht is written about in that book THE ROAD comes to pass, in which case I refuse to be a menu item. I got the guns after reading that book and I think I have overreacted. I honestly doubt I could live long enough for the USA to come to that.

Yes, dogs are excellent crime deterrents in many situations. We acquired an English Shepherd, which multi-tasks as a sheep dog, guard dog and a watch dog.

Benefits:
- Early warning: They can hear and smell things better than we can.
- Deterrent: A barking, growling dog will keep away those who have no offensive means to defeat them.
- Food: Some dogs have a working ability to hunt or assist their owner in hunting
- Herding: Some dogs can be helpful in managing livestock movement.
- Guarding: Some dogs can be helpful in guarding livestock

Drawbacks:
- Food: They must be fed
- Attention: A barking dog can draw attention at times when least desired

Any other points to be added to the above list?

I need another German Shepherd. They seem to have the idea that the property belongs to THEM, and treat it accordingly. On our remote homestead some years ago, I noticed we had lost some gasoline from the farm tank. Since the dog had a habit of patrolling the 40+ acres in the evening, I figured he must have been away when the thieving took place.

I chained him up near the house for a few nights to let him know he was on duty there. (He could break the chain at will.) One night I heard a ruckus, no barking, just banging and bumping noises. I did NOT want to get in a fight, so I took my time about getting the shotgun and big flashlight, and went out. I found the dog with a short bit of chain still attached to his collar, sitting by the gas tank, with a big doggy grin. The gas hose was lying in the driveway, some distance away was a battered 5 gallon can, and a light blood trail leading out the driveway. GOOD DOG!

Never missed any more gas.

When a good friend's car broke down near our place, he came to borrow tools. We were not at home, but he knew the dog well, so together they happily went to the workshop to get the tools, knowing I wouldn't mind. The dog was cool until he had gathered what tools he needed and started to leave. Nuthin' doin', said the dog. Our friend was still atop the workbench when we got home some time later.

I want another one of those dogs. They THINK.

Well, non-lethal defense is obviously tricky, and I think it comes down to a question of whether you want to leave the innocents under your protection to the mercy of violent people. Personally, I can handle at least a "shoot to wound" ethos under those circumstances.

But if you are trying for a non-lethal or non-confrontational set of tactics for personal or family protection, then you'll want to start with the basics (many already discussed on this thread) and go from there.

Avoidance, as everyone has said, is a key option. Keep out of sight, don't attract attention. Make the approach to your home unwelcoming.

Passive defense, includes not only the earth berms, fences, walls and planted thorns mentioned earlier, but also the simple option of making your house incredibly tough to penetrate. Those of us who live in industrialized nations aren't used to the idea, but you could practically make your home in a bunker if that were your only option. With a substantial geothermal power tap and/or a hidden micro-hydro generator, you could power an internal aquaponics system and literally wait assailants out. (Solar and wind are too easily vandalized to work in this plan.) Of course, that dramatic a strategy would assume a home that was a de facto fortress -- and if you're not building with reinforced concrete then you'll probably need an underground home to do that.

Any of us, of course, could simply have a heavily reinforced conventional home, but without bulletproof windows or storm shutters and bulletproof walls, this "pacifist siege" strategy won't forestall the first determined attacker willing to burn a clip of their AK-47 against a pane of ordinary "shatterproof" glass. But merely tough windows and walls, along with other security measures, will be very helpful in increasing your overall safety.

Community, of course, includes your neighbors, but is more than your neighbors. Depending on how challenging an environment you anticipate, having a lot of allied, competent people not only around you but basically living with you is a very good idea. Ironically, feudalism, despite its barbaric connotations, implied a degree of connection between the ruler and the ruled -- with protection and grants of land (or at the lowest rung, the opportunity and requirement to farm for one's living) being offered in exchange for allegiance. A more enlightened course of mutual self-protection would work better in the modern world, and would allow for greater equality in relationships. Some clear social compact will probably be needed in this instance... though if times are actually that desperate, such a group would probably have less trouble overcoming trivial disputes than most organizations where membership is hardly a matter of life or death.

I would argue that your best line of defense is to make sure that law and order do not collapse in your vicinity -- in particular, to keep your hometown or rural area on an even keel. But if this proves impossible, then yes, make sure you get along well with your neighbors.

Having said that, though, if you expect extreme instability, then staying clear of the largest population centers makes obvious sense, as does establishing a large enough community capable of self-defense. An extended, fortified, multi-family farmstead, a fortified town or a secure arcology would all be examples of such an arrangement.

Some people insist they intend to work all day as farmers without electricity or fuel, and then stay up all night keeping watch over their families. But you have to sleep sometime, and four or five people can't keep up a military regimen of 24-hour watches, perimeter patrols, and so forth. Especially not if they intend to get anything else done.

If you can raise enough food to supply a large number of people at your homestead, and honestly expect such severe conditions, then weigh who you know who might be interested in living there with you and contributing to the common welfare and defense of that ad hoc community. Food production, of course, becomes an issue in itself, both in maintaining your group and supporting any external trade you may engage in. I would consider as many food sources as possible, especially as many minimal-labor resources as you can manage. Aquaponics, some livestock and of course lots of existing fruit bushes and trees would be very helpful.

Dogs obviously provide additional "troops," as does automated equipment. A system such as this motion-tracking paintball gun (transparently designed to hold other weapons) could be deployed on your property . Once cleared to fire, a set of several such tracking systems, employing the weapons of your choice, would provide an additional layer of defense to your complex, and your defenders (even your dogs) would not be required to shed their blood in its defense in order to take their first few shots at unwelcome intruders.

Obviously these devices could be sabotaged (though you would presumably shelter them) and would be fairly expensive. But especially if you do plan to be one of only a few defenders, having half-a-dozen weapons tracking and firing at attackers on just one side of your house could have a dramatic impact on your situation in such a firefight. Remember, most people are not hardened killers. And holding off a determined gang may be far beyond their abilities. But doing so with the support of a few friends, some dogs and a couple dozen fearless, accurate, motion-tracking weapons may be another thing entirely.

There are other electronic failsafes worth having. The most obvious would be some form of nightvision equipment, preferably for every defender and a few extras besides. Another would be some kind of sensors/alarm system, though you may not want a blaring alarm to go off outside if a sensor gets tripped.

Finally, you can make the approach to your home highly uncomfortable using mechanical and electronic methods. Aside from caltrops, etc, there's always the "motion-detecting light" tactic, though instead of a porchlight, you can have a couple dozen hardened halogen searchlights, arc lamps and/or strobe lights flare up at once. You can amplify this disorienting effect by kicking in some sirens or remote-triggered "mugger screamer" units, hammering their eardrums. And then, of course, flip on the multitude of automatic sprinklers. Your visitors may already be aware of your electric (and possibly barbed wire) fences. They may not be aware of how much stronger that shock gets when you are grounded.

All of those distracting effects may seem minor, but they're apt to prevent a massed charge against your home. And if several (or more) automated weapons are opening up at the same time, this incipient invasion may be over before the sentry or two on watch have time to do much besides call out a warning and look for hostile targets.

And yes, there would be some serious capital outlay to take all of the above electronic measures, especially to deploy the motion-tracking weapons, but that's another illustration of the economies of scale involved in getting a truly cooperative community together and living in relatively close quarters. The food-production and micro-enterprise opportunities would arguably be greater still.

Last edited by DryObserver on Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:21 am; edited 3 times in total

At my old house we had a lot of problems with break-ins. Be it the garage, or house (though it was mostly the garage and stuff in the yard).

Two years before I was attacked I gave my dalmatian to my parents because I had another baby and couldn't give her enough attention. And the break-ins started again... They even stole her dog house out of the yard.

So later we found a dog that was a little less maintenance, a homeless shepherd mix (maybe full bred, I'll never know). He's a total baby, but his bark is frightening and I suppose he may hurt someone if he felt either he or his family was being threatened.

The downside to having a scary dog to other people... before I was attacked, we kept finding empty cans of something called "back off dog" in our yard. And I know it was no coincidence that he didn't bark or make a sound when I was shot next to our house. As, when my mom showed up he way laying on the ground, not making a noise. She thought he was dead.

My point? Unless you have a killer dog that you know won't hurt your family... Don't count on that dog for protection. They will hurt or kill your dog if you really have something that they want.

I've said it before, get a Maremma (or other Livestock Guardian Dog). They will protect you with their lives and will not be aggressive with you. But they aren't your usual submissive dogs,so be prepared to have the equivalent of an obstroperous teenager in your life.

where do u live? Detroit?

I never could understand the concept of non lethal defense.
OK so you break the bad guys arm. He finds a weaker victim.
I so much as find a fool stealing eggs from my chicken house and he is a dead man. Period.

Then you won't last very long.

There's nothing wrong with having deterrents to avoid a confrontational situation. We can't all be Rambo all the time.

Nope. That happened in the south side of Toledo.

To my dogs defense... He too could break his chain and did often. But if he was at the end of the chain and someone sprayed something in his face... I don't think there was much he could do.

I always put him outside when I went to work... They must have had the whole thing planned.

Oh well that was then.

I do believe that both of our dogs would do their best to protect us. I'm just saying don't count on it.

I've noticed also since we moved here that our boxer has grown less tolerant of people that she doesn't know... To the point that I have to put her in the kennel when someone strange to her comes over. Funny... She hugs my parents when they visit... Forget anyone else. She'll have no part of it.

I am afraid it is you, sir, that won't last very long. Any force used to foil an assailant, targeting either you or your supply, had better eliminate that foe permanently and discreetly. Else wise you have set yourself up for the most dreaded of inevitable attacks: revenge, from either the thwarted foe or his allies. If you intend to cause less than lethal harm upon another, and use that harm to deter attempts to invade your resources, you have just acquired an enemy. Never underestimate the threat of a wounded, hungry, angry, and determined foe bent on seeking revenge. Especially a foe that now knows you must have something worth protecting or hiding.

If you avoid confrontation by claims of not having any food, what makes you think an intruder will not want to search your premises? This intruder will be armed and you won’t be. How will you stop him from looking around? What makes anyone believe telling the lie of "we have no food" will not go unpunished by a bandit once it is exposed as a lie? Either make no preparations, or defend them well.

Hiding food supplies cannot be 100% effective. Expect thorough surveillance from any potential invader, prior to attack. If you really intend to create a plausible denial of owning supplies, how do you intend to fake the emaciated form of starvation? How will you explain your health, strength, and vigor to bandits used to seeing countless examples of real starving people?

Live in a fantasy all you like, folks. If you have made extensive preparations to lengthen your life, and provide for your future, plan to defend them with nothing less than lethal force. Or, just hand your hard work out at the first sign of trouble, and save yourself the future attacks. In this case, resign yourself to starving to death.

The day will come when only those people that prepared are left. Perhaps those left will organize into a police force of some sort. Plan to provide for your own protection in the interim. Live long enough to see some form of law reestablished.

In the event of a catastrophic collapse, there are only three realistic choices:
1. Make plans to die in the manner of your choosing.
2. Try to live off the charity of those that will defend their supply.
3. Or, make bandits disappear, hiding the bodies properly.

What a farce! This thread should be moved to "Out of This World." Buy a damn gun and learn how to use it!

- Pike

I think you should relax.

Put yourself in the shoes of a bad guy. Are you going to attack the people with the dogs and the geese, plus brambles and barbed wire, with a local militia on hand? Or are you going to attack the isolated nutter who is ready to use lethal force, but who has been asleep from exhaustion the past two hours?

The most important thing is community solidarity. It is worth far more than an attitude. Heh, I've got weaponry, but it isn't necessarily a first line of defence. Those who use such weaponry as a first line of defence will not last long, IMO. They are the ones who will suffer reprisals.

But when you do need to use lethal defence, do it with conviction and skill.

I don't think crazy people should buy guns, personally.

But that's just me.