Crap - last I read the planet is cooling. Beyond that, isn't the planet overpopulated? This moronic set of laws will "save thousands of lives...". Are you sure you want this? (Also, despite Europe's reliance on diesels, aren't they healthier than us? Don't they live longer? If any of that's true the soot problem can't be all that bad...)

A bit more seriously, the new common rail diesels already run pretty clean compared to diesel engines of the recent past. Beyond that, propane injection does wonders to clean up diesel emissions. Doesn't take much propane, and it adds substantial power, too. LNG injection might work just as well. Either would be a hell of a lot less expensive than Kalifornia's heavy-handed approach. (I read the link and note that while fleets are given YEARS to phase in the new requirements, the little guy is screwed - he has to comply immediately. Apparently you only matter if you're big enough to afford a lobbyist. Typical...)

The REAL reason the law would save fuel is that the cost of trucking would soar, and there would be a lot less of it going on! That'll certainly speed the switch to Mexican ports, too, which will really help the employment numbers out there in Kali-land. After destroying their trucking industry, I'd love to see their faces when it dawns on them that everything they wear, use and eat arrives by truck!

The market is already making strides - for example, with tires that have less rolling resistance. The "super single" that replaces dual drive wheels saves a lot on fuel, and I'm seeing more and more of them on the road. As a bonus, the single aluminum wheel and single tire weighs a lot less than the duals used now, so there's less rotational mass. This makes for huge fuel savings with no government enforcers required.

I would have no problem requiring these super singles on all new highway tractors sold, but I have a huge quarrel with retroactively inflicting things like that on the little guy who is already struggling to make payments. (Regardless of where you live, your state DOT is already shaking down truckers in a manner that would do an Illinois Governor proud. In the interest of a few goods continuing to arrive at our stores, let's do away with that extortion before adding any other burdens.)

Back to personal transportation. I like (and would personally prefer to buy) the turbo diesel for it's ready adaptability to bio-diesel fuels, some of which show great promise and realistic EROEI. I also like those little diesels for their high efficiency, torque and durability.


Last edited by fireplaceguy on Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:29 pm; edited 2 times in total

The truth is spoken................

Thanks, both of you! Unfortunately, I'm convinced they already know the truth. All of them...

BTW, Cur, that Tolkein quote in your sig is one of my favorites. I just pulled the trilogy off the shelf for re-reading - something I do every few years...

I agree that blaming the unions is a joke, but where do I get these gold plated BJs? What does it mean? Is it just when she swallows?

Your entire first paragraph was pure class-envy vitriol, and a transparent appeal to emotion. That's a pathetic logical fallacy, and you diminish yourself when you use it. It's refreshing that you at least have SOME recognition of the absurdity of the labor cost structure, despite your leanings.

I know the left is quite exercised over executive compensation right now, but mathematically that isn't the real problem. (Just remember that YOU brought up the term "vampire".) Read on...

Nice try. From my original post: "After all, the 250,000 UAW auto workers cost GM, Ford and Chrysler $25 a man hour more than the competition pays. That means that the Big 3 lose $625,000 in excess labor costs for every hour this labor force works - thats FIVE MILLION DOLLARS a day!!! "

Note that I never said wages. I said COST. As in THAT'S THE COST of labor for the big three. Sure, new workers are paid less in wages and bennies, but I'm talking about what the workforce COSTS the companies. Your article spins this and focuses on wages, as if total COST didn't matter at all. The fact remains that the automaker's total COST of labor is a product of the union contracts, and the total COST of labor is bleeding the companies dry. Calling me un-American won't keep you from flunking math.

The current retirees, living the dream on the backs of new car buyers (and now the taxpayer) will have to face reality sooner or later. Their retirement package is unsustainable. (Unsustainable - that's a term you lefties like. Why are you having such a tough time with this?) We already know Social Security will go broke if we allow baby boomers to retire at 65. What makes you think it will work for the UAW boomers to retire s early as 48? The current generation of workers are suffering for the this greed of generations past. (You'd love to punish management in this way, and fair is fair, isn't it?.) I should think the karmic nature of the situation would be appealing as well...

Regarding executive compensation, note that this distraction has been dragged out at every opportunity by the left, and that their constituency is a sucker for any argument that stirs emotions of envy. You've both fallen into that trap. Forget your envy. If you do the math, you'll find that two weeks of the union's excessive labor costs handily eclipse the total price of CEO compensation at the Big 3.

Mathematically, who's the vampire in this equation?

No doubt there's been a big bubble in executive compensation lately, but the marketplace is correcting that problem right now. (Leftist dogma notwithstanding, the marketplace ALWAYS corrects bubbles when it's allowed to function. As to bubbles, the largest bubble in human history is staring you in the face right now. It's SEVERAL orders of magnitude larger than executive compensation, and all the actions of the FED and the .gov are meant to prevent the market from correcting this one. TPTB will do everything possible to keep THEIR house of cards standing, and you don't seem at all concerned about the consequences of that.)

Anyway, getting past the miniscule (and fading) issue of executive compensation will free you to focus on the problems that are actually killing Detroit.

This will mean the belated discovery of the forest lurking behind the trees. Figuratively, you now need to fell those trees. Your emotions are a dull pocket knife. My math is a Stihl chainsaw.

Good luck...


Last edited by fireplaceguy on Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

The South will rise again...........

And speaking of math, you have 4974 posts here.

I have 291.

I take great comfort in that.

If you were to ask most people the employees at the foreign car makers are earning a pretty good wage too. Is this high non-union wage these employees are making partly because of the high wage that the Union workers are making? If so, will they be at risk of wage reductions when the big 3 goes down?

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977521472

That's a very good observation. I've always suspected that foreign automakers operating here have paid higher than average wages just to hold the unions at bay, which effectively keeps their costs from getting even more out of whack. While their costs are high, they're still the lowest cost producers in the arena.

I recall reading that the US average wage is a bit under $20/hr. I'd bet there will be real downward pressure on other higher than average wages as this mess unfolds.

BTW, you've just scored a bullseye the part of the equation that makes me confident the industry can be saved. The consumer is already getting a huge dose of reality. As soon as production costs are in line with that reality, finished product prices will fall in line too. That's when people start buying cars again....

And apparently that means it's free? Shirley you know those costs are built into society, regardless of who writes the checks. (And yes, I'm calling you Shirley!) Furthermore, those automakers are writing a check for their US employees health insurance, just like everyone else in the industry. The cost disparity is still right there, to be found in the bloated union plan if you'd only look.

The disparity in retirees is only partly due to time in business. UAW employees can take full retirement at age 48, whereupon they draw a pension funded by the automakers and continue their health benefits (also funded by the automakers). The non-union folks work till 65, taking Social security and 401(k) distributions just like the rest of us. Their primary health care coverage is Medicare, which is paid for by a government transfer of wealth from the young to the old.

Furthermore, the Big 3 automakers have a very large pool of retirees left over from the days when they had little competition and a huge market share. That problem wouldn't be nearly as bad if the union contract made them work till 65 like the rest of society. (I thought you socialists liked fairness. What gives???)

So, the foreign companies will never have this kind of retiree burden. Contrary to the writer's claim, that statistic will never even out in our lifetimes unless the union contract is voided or the huge crop of youthful retirees magically die off. The Big 3 will be broke long before this could possibly play out. (Hell, they're effectively broke now, which is why we're discussing this!)

It's possible you're just lousy at math, but I'm not convinced you simply don't get it. This just isn't that difficult if you're intellectually honest.

Hey - a quick correction on an earlier statement: I just jumped over to a diesel forum I belong to and there was a lively discussion of the new Kali diesel laws. Turns out one-truck owner/operators ARE exempted from this nonsense. Unfortunately they're all going out of business anyway, as the same law exempts ALL Mexican trucks operating in Kali.

The Big 3 automakers and the UAW can negotiate any salary for the UAW workers they want to. If the UAW can get $25/hour more in compensation for their workers, then good for them.

But when US auto companies are losing money because their costs exceed their income, then they have to either increase their income or reduce their costs or go bankrupt. The biggest cost the US automakers have to deal with is their high salaries to UAW folks.

You'd think the UAW would be willing to help, but the UAW is refusing to help cut costs for the automakers by reducing their salaries .....they'd rather see the US taxpayers subsidize their high salaries. And George Bush, Obama, Pelosi, Harry Reid etc. are going to vote the way the UAW tells them to.

Yep. The UAW figures the politicians owe them OUR money for their decades of support.

Unfortunately, they're right! We now have the best government money can buy!

The UAW almost exclusively supports democrats....I doubt they ever gave any money to Bush. Unions reportedly gave over $150 million to Obama, for instance.

Bush is going to give the "Big 3" enough to keep them from going bankrupt until Obama takes over. Then the UAW will have its people in control of Congress and the presidency and the money can really start to flow to the "Big 3".

I understand your family owns 5 miles of river front? Yet, you have no campassion for J6P.

The United Auto Workers (UAW) union is “solely” to blame for the collapse of negotiations on a $14-billion auto bailout deal that stalled in the Senate Thursday, Sen. Tom Colburn (R-Okla.) said on Friday.

But UAW President Ron Gettelfinger in a press conference Friday morning blamed Republican senators.

The auto bailout bill, which passed the House in a 237-170 vote on Wednesday, was defeated in a 52-35 procedural vote in the Senate late Thursday night after negotiations between automakers, the UAW, and Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) fell apart.

“As far as the failure of last night, it solely lies on UAW,” Coburn stated. “All we asked was, ‘Just give us a date at which you will have competitive wage rates. We will put it in and that’s what you will have to meet.’ They would not move. They would not renegotiate their contract with GM as far as wage rates.”

Now THAT sums it up! Nice find, Alex!

Farking Hilarious......

It'll be the same story all over again when the 17 billion runs out in March and Obama gives an even bigger bailout for the UAW and the Big 3 except Obama will completely cave in to the UAW.

Yep. GW just just punted and Barry proudly caught the ball. What amuses me is how many folks still don't understand that there's only one team on the field!