Sounds to me like it is way overdone at a fooot and a half of rock. Most driveways around here are MAYBE 6" of rock, no special cloth under it, just a 4" layer of # 2 , let it get beat into the dirt somewhat, and top with a couple inches of pit-run, and it is stable as all get out. In 6 to 10 years you may need another couple inches of pit-run. But that is on a clay base. YMMV
edit to add: And I seldom see a driveway over about 8 feet wide. You building a state highway, or what?
Thursday • August 27 2009
Planning For The Future
Driveways for Doomsteads
patience
hardtootell-2
patience wrote:
Sounds to me like it is way overdone at a fooot and a half of rock. Most driveways around here are MAYBE 6" of rock, no special cloth under it, just a 4" layer of # 2 , let it get beat into the dirt somewhat, and top with a couple inches of pit-run, and it is stable as all get out. In 6 to 10 years you may need another couple inches of pit-run. But that is on a clay base. YMMVedit to add: And I seldom see a driveway over about 8 feet wide. You building a state highway, or what?
The quotes I have are for 10-12 ft. Some have somewhat grander (and more informed) ideas, as do the guys quoting me. I am all for something modest, functional and affordable.
I spoke with one guy who had built roads through swamps. He had dumped pitrun rock over geotextile and logs and it held huge trucks. I am thinking that geotextile directly over topsoil with pitrun should work then.
patience
hardtootell-2,
That should work. In really wet weather, it could get soft underneath and being like walking on a waterbed, but the geotextile will keep mud from coming up through the rock. If you rupture that, it's over. Down you go. But that if why the state won't allow big trucks on the county roads right after the Spring thaw around here. That's a worthwhile solution, IMHO.
That should work. In really wet weather, it could get soft underneath and being like walking on a waterbed, but the geotextile will keep mud from coming up through the rock. If you rupture that, it's over. Down you go. But that if why the state won't allow big trucks on the county roads right after the Spring thaw around here. That's a worthwhile solution, IMHO.
oldchuck
vtsnowedin wrote:
well lets take a looky here.Say its 500 feet long and you want eighteen feet wide and want to do it right and put in a foot and a half of good gravel.
500X18X1.5/27=500 cubic yards of both gravel and excavation. If your not in ledge you could get the excavation for say $4.00/ cy and the gravel hauled in and placed for $20.00/cy so $12,000 not counting the culvert at $30.00 / foot.
Now take your $25,000 small tractor that can dig with an inexperienced operator at the rate of about 0.10 cy per minute it will take you about eighty three hours to dig the hole. Maybe longer if you don't know how or where to dig or where to put the spoil. And you still have to buy the gravel and have it hauled in which will probably cost you $18.00/ cy
Of course you can just cut the trees off close and start driving over the stumps and fill the mud holes as they develop with a pickup load or three as needed and just let it evolve over time.
Quite the grand highway, VT. Way over done in my opinion.
Where things stand with us now. 900' roadway about a third done. Used about a hundred yards of crushed slate ledge. Have bought another 200 yards. Cost about $20 a yard delivered. Depth varies as there is some grade softening to do and some ledge that doesn't require much but say an average of six to eight inches. Fabric cost about $700. Bought seven culverts (lotta water to deal with) different sizes, 8" to 15". 8" - $4.79 per foot, 12" - $7.74 a foot, 15" - $9.97 per foot. Fabric and roadway are 12' wide, which is plenty to get a good sized truck down. I expect the total bill to come to around $10,000.
Hardtotell probably has an easier run. However, HTT, I own a medium sized Kubota tractor and I love it but I wouldn't attempt to build this road with it. It would take forever and I would not do nearly as good a job of it. Use the big machines while they last.
VT, are we neighbors?
Pictures later.
vtsnowedin
oldchuck wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Quite the grand highway, VT. Way over done in my opinion.
Where things stand with us now. 900' roadway about a third done. Used about a hundred yards of crushed slate ledge. Have bought another 200 yards. Cost about $20 a yard delivered. Depth varies as there is some grade softening to do and some ledge that doesn't require much but say an average of six to eight inches. Fabric cost about $700. Bought seven culverts (lotta water to deal with) different sizes, 8" to 15". 8" - $4.79 per foot, 12" - $7.74 a foot, 15" - $9.97 per foot. Fabric and roadway are 12' wide, which is plenty to get a good sized truck down. I expect the total bill to come to around $10,000.
Hardtotell probably has an easier run. However, HTT, I own a medium sized Kubota tractor and I love it but I wouldn't attempt to build this road with it. It would take forever and I would not do nearly as good a job of it. Use the big machines while they last.
VT, are we neighbors?
Pictures later.
Yup, Eighteen miles.
.
And yes I do tend to build things like a super highway. It comes from working for over thirty years for state DOTs. first New Hampshire and now Vermont. But remember that fuel truck coming to your house does not weigh any less when he turns off the state road onto your drive and is a full eight feet wide when you meet him half way up driving your SUV. And then there is the snow bank to consider when it snows a half foot a night for a week . How high can you pile it and where are you going to put it.
I'm working on Route 5 right now. The center eighteen feet is concrete dating to 1922 but that has been overlaid and widened to twenty eight feet in most places with five inches plus or minus over the old concrete.
It has served them pretty well for the money they have put into it.
oldchuck
Ah yes, that explains it. You highway guys build for thousands of cars. I'm just building a little road deep into the woods that won't ever average two cars a day, perhaps none someday. At most I'm hoping to be able to get a concrete truck down there for one or two deliveries, maybe a small UPS truck now and then. Highly unlikely two vehicles would ever meet. A couple of horses could get by each other just fine.
You tearing up all that old concrete or just covering it over again?
You tearing up all that old concrete or just covering it over again?
frankthetank
A buddy that was a big off road truck guy said that all you need is a lot of speed to not get stuck... Maybe just get a good run at her every time!
hardtootell-2
I think I'll ask one of my neighbors who quoted on the work and has cattle if he knows anyone who wants to put their cattle on the land in exchange for some gravel.
vtsnowedin
oldchuck wrote:
Ah yes, that explains it. You highway guys build for thousands of cars. I'm just building a little road deep into the woods that won't ever average two cars a day, perhaps none someday. At most I'm hoping to be able to get a concrete truck down there for one or two deliveries, maybe a small UPS truck now and then. Highly unlikely two vehicles would ever meet. A couple of horses could get by each other just fine.You tearing up all that old concrete or just covering it over again?
Nope they are grinding off two inches of the hot top that it has been overlaid with and putting a new two inches back. You get all the way to the concrete in some spots. Another section is just getting a shim and overlaid leaving all the old hot top in place. Some shoulder work, guard rail and drainage but mostly its a paving job not a reconstruction.
hardtootell-2
In about an hour the excavation starts on my driveway. It has been a bitch to get it going. Lots of empty promises, confusion and overcharging. I finally tracked down the guy who actually owns the local quarry. He has a excavation business also so he is fully integrated. We hit it off right away. He is an older guy trying to sell his business. I had some good ideas for him. Maybe that's why he gave me a good price and can start right away.
On the subject of geotextile. Pit run gravel is so cheap from this guy ($4/tonne delivered) that the geotextile is not worth using. I will post pics when I can
On the subject of geotextile. Pit run gravel is so cheap from this guy ($4/tonne delivered) that the geotextile is not worth using. I will post pics when I can
hardtootell-2
Well its in... It ended up being 400 ft (130M) with a 30x60 ft pad. It curves and drops gently down. It is ditched to control run off. It is soft so I am going to rake some cement into it and have it rolled. I am relieved. Now I can get other things done. I will post pics when I can.
oldchuck
Oh, man, your post gives me a twinge of pain. Ours is pretty much done too. Took more than a month fighting rain and mud the whole time. Cost about $25,000. Still doing site work but it is starting to get pretty.
hardtootell-2
a couple of pics
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patience
hardtootell-2,
Looks like a lot of progress there! Glad to hear it's finished. Contract work is always a hassle. As for hardness, I'd just run up and down it with the heaviest thing I could find/borrow. Maybe a neighbor has a truck? A loaded truck making a few passes over it will pack the heck out of it. Most likely won't need cement. After you have used it for a year, get a 2" to 4" topping of fine stone on it and grade and roll that down. It'll feel like concrete.
Looks like a lot of progress there! Glad to hear it's finished. Contract work is always a hassle. As for hardness, I'd just run up and down it with the heaviest thing I could find/borrow. Maybe a neighbor has a truck? A loaded truck making a few passes over it will pack the heck out of it. Most likely won't need cement. After you have used it for a year, get a 2" to 4" topping of fine stone on it and grade and roll that down. It'll feel like concrete.
hardtootell-2
I bought 5- 80 lb bags of concrete and spread it on the surface and had them roll it. It is pretty firm now. It was cool to be there when the dozer operator was working. I just chatted with him and discussed common sense things as we went. I have some ditching and slopes to control run off. They were abused by the previous customer so I made a point of getting them coffee and donuts. I am sure it helped.
patience
That always works!
hermit
JohnDenver wrote:
Very intelligent people have painstakingly combed through the numbers and determined that biodiesel is a complete waste of time due to its crappy EROEI.
Understandable, if farming the feedstock. Is biodeisel feasible if using agricultural waste and uncultivated feedstock, such as switchgrass?
hardtootell-2
hermit wrote:
JohnDenver wrote:
Very intelligent people have painstakingly combed through the numbers and determined that biodiesel is a complete waste of time due to its crappy EROEI.
it is feasable (from a EROR prspective) with soy or canola or sunflower also
According to a study by Drs. Van Dyne and Raymer for the Tennessee Valley Authority, the average US farm consumes fuel at the rate of 82 litres per hectare (8.75 US gallons per acre) of land to produce one crop. However, average crops of rapeseed produce oil at an average rate of 1,029 L/ha (110 US gal/acre), and high-yield rapeseed fields produce about 1,356 L/ha (145 US gal/acre). The ratio of input to output in these cases is roughly 1:12.5 and 1:16.5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
patience
Yeah, it only goes to bad when you let Cargill do the work with govt suvbsidies. 
When it is used on the farm where it is produced, it's a clear winner. I would favor that as a transition method, but we need to eventually go back to draft animals, IMHO. The problem with tractor farming is that you ALSO need to produce tractors and their needs for upkeep, which the farm won't do. There is a really huge energy and resource cost to producing modern farm equipment. A farm CAN, however, produce its' own draft animals. Agrculture was practiced for untold centuries with only wooden implements and draft animals. That was always sustainable in its' original form, but it won't support the population we have now in the style to which we have become addicted.
I don't know anyone who wants to live like it was 1860, but that's about as far as my seat-of-the-pants guess says we can sustain. Not likely to become a popular idea until the alternative is starving.
When it is used on the farm where it is produced, it's a clear winner. I would favor that as a transition method, but we need to eventually go back to draft animals, IMHO. The problem with tractor farming is that you ALSO need to produce tractors and their needs for upkeep, which the farm won't do. There is a really huge energy and resource cost to producing modern farm equipment. A farm CAN, however, produce its' own draft animals. Agrculture was practiced for untold centuries with only wooden implements and draft animals. That was always sustainable in its' original form, but it won't support the population we have now in the style to which we have become addicted.
I don't know anyone who wants to live like it was 1860, but that's about as far as my seat-of-the-pants guess says we can sustain. Not likely to become a popular idea until the alternative is starving.
dunewalker
Reading Thoreau's "Walden" that seems like a reasonably comfortable era/lifestyle. I think it was in the 1840s or so.
patience
dunewalker,
Yes, it suits me, but I think a lot of people would have some trouble adapting to doing the actual work involved in that.
About the only thing I would miss is the antibiotics and the internet.
Yes, it suits me, but I think a lot of people would have some trouble adapting to doing the actual work involved in that.
About the only thing I would miss is the antibiotics and the internet.